We want to hear what the community thinks would be most fun. I wouldn't want to see any restrictions on style. I asked our illustrator to go wild and free associate. I think it's up to you guys if you want to build on what he's done, or make something unique.
As for reviewing content, there are a lot of ways we could handle that. We could start with a more open system where we leverage the community to flag inappropriate content and let people use filters (and create restricted wallets) to screen it out. Or start more restrictive, with publishing keys and an official review process.
What do you guys think? How far should we go in restricting art and content?
Also worth mentioning: anonymity isn't necessarily a goal - you'll be playing the game in person, after all.
Grimjack last edited by
I think a community flagging process is good so long as there are guidelines that are set in place. That way we don't get outliers flagging things that aren't inappropriate for invalid reasons. Also, to combine the two paths, having an official review process to see the flagged content would bring it all together. If people are uncomfortable with anything, they can quickly set the filters to filter out a large part of the cards they don't want to see. I think a tag system would be great for this.
I think that limiting the creativity from the outset will defeat the purpose of this game in some part, mainly because from the start using custom art has been mentioned as something integral. Personally, it's part of what drew me to the game.
I wouldn't suggest reviewing every single card that is customized simply because that is insane. So having the community flag cards considered inappropriate by guidelines you set will make the process easier. I also recommend issuing bans to repeat offenders whether they are purposely making inappropriate cards or spamming by flagging any card/ not following flagging guidelines.
I know that sounds like a lot and I don't know how many resources you guys have, but I think that there can be a balance struck. Oh and also keep in mind plagiarism. I don't know how much can be added to the blockchain but people claiming work as their own that isn't, is also important to catch. Maybe a way to add that at least they have permission to use the art or somehow letting them link to the original if it's online? I think having an info box about the card that authors can write in would be a good start but I don't have a good idea right now.
Whew, sorry for the long reply, but I want to see this succeed so I'm offering as much as I know. After seeing other sites going through so many debacles where simple solutions could have solved the issues, I don't want to see that happen here.
sprocket314 last edited by
I wonder how many of the original The Spoils cards would get flagged as inappropriate by this system.
It would be good to know the target audience for Volition. Would 10-year olds play it? Where would we set the limit, 15 and up? And I mean limit just for the art/content guidelines.
On the other hand, I am quite an open-minded person and I would not mind a more adult oriented artwork. One of the key things about the openness of this system should be how free it is, so I would not want to see too many restrictions. I just wonder if there could be a way of segregating the adult content from the "child-friendly" one. Maybe it could be by sets? Some sets could be more "cute" or entirely targeted at a younger population and other sets could be for adults only? So when you mine them, you could have some age-restriction on the mining act?
Like having three mining levels: below 15s miners, 15 to 18 miners, 18+ miners?
Bengali last edited by
@grimjack I like the ideas you brought up. ^ ^ In regards to plagarism, perhaps it could be one of the guidelines by which a piece could get flagged?
Grimjack last edited by
@Bengali Thank you and yes plagiarism should definitely something someone can flag. I just don't know how the system works for providing info on your cards, which is necessary since someone who doesn't know that you have permission could flag you.
@sprocket314 I don't know enough about The Spoils to comment on those cards. But you seem to exclude other possible cards that could crop up. Those which are racially insensitive, depict sexual acts, etc. I'm not against nudity in the cards, but there's a clear difference between nudity and sexual acts being shown. So the problem cards can run the gamut. Now you may say that pornographic content isn't really a problem since there could be a filter system. But it's all about public perception.
Not to go off on a tangent, but as an example I'll use Snapchat. Snapchat started out with the stigma that it was only really useful for sending limited time nudes. It took Facebook seeing Snapchat as a serious threat for other people to really see Snapchat for the potential it had. Now I know this is this and that is that, but there's a very good chance this game can get stigmatized if sexual acts are allowed on cards. On the other hand, nudes in art is generally in the grey zone. Look to Roman art for example. But this game getting maligned so early can put an effective stop to what they're trying to do and I believe that goal is more important since it's what will keep the game going. Making custom art is only one part of this endeavor.
Again, I do enjoy the freedom they are going to allow, I am an advocate for it. But there are still lines that must not be crossed because there are still rational and irrational people out there that could cause a more than just a stir.
As for the actual sets themselves, I don't think any of the art will inherently need to be age restricted since I doubt there will be such cards in base sets. But that's me assuming. Again a system of flagging, reviewing and banning both offending artists and irresponsible flaggers should be enough. At least I believe so.
By the way, I'm not trying to discount your opinion or anything of the sort. If I come off as gruff, it is not my intention. I always welcome the discussion anyway, especially if it's for helping out things like this.
sprocket314 last edited by
@Grimjack I will absolutely respect any decision the Volition team makes with respect to guidelines. I also agree with you that as an initial step, it would be best to be a bit more restrictive to avoid being stigmatised and maybe once it is consolidated, it can open the door to more adult-themed sets with some sort of control system or new guidelines.
There's a lot here, so I'll try not to be too unwieldy with my thoughts.
@Grimjack: I think a pretty apt example for us is DeviantArt. They place a lot of trust in the community to adhere to their etiquette policy and self regulate. I'm in agreement with you and Patrick that I wouldn't want to limit or stifle creativity with regard to customization.
Copyright and fair use will be an issue. We want artists to get credit for their work, and we also want creativity to flourish. @Bengali and Grimjack, we'll likely have to have a formal DMCA takedown process. Leaving copyright to the community might get the company in hot water (though, we won't be hosting any of the images--still, I bet Disney, for example, would try to sue us if some players turned Volition into a Star Wars CCG or something). If we do take the prudent approach, it'll be important to be as transparent as possible when removing art. I don't know how to do this one democratically, except to be honest as possible.
@sprocket314, Volition may inherit some mechanics from The Spoils, as well as some of the humor and absurdity, but I think Patrick and Ken are designing this to be much less outrageous. The sets that we launch will be appropriate for younger players--13 and up, let's say. But, as with any democratized system, it's wide open to, well, being gamed. In my opinion, the three primary categories of concern are prohibited content (obscenity, abuse, etc.), restricted content (nudity, profanity, etc.), and discouraged content (stupid stuff that detracts from the game: e.g. spam or art that makes a card look similar to a different card). Grimjack pointed to the difficulty adjudicating between these categories. All communities are going to struggle with this one (as we've seen with Snapchat, Facebook, Reddit...). My argument would be to rely heavily on the community to flag content, and we give players the tools to filter accordingly.
And, the other point sprocket and grimjack raised might be rephrased as: What kind of community do we want to encourage? This is difficult. We really want this to be a decentralized game. I sometimes use the term democratized. But, I don't know if I'd be comfortable if it was dominated by a particularly annoying group, especially at the beginning when we're trying to build critical mass. The economic model for the game might be laissez faire, but should that extend equally to the user-generated content? Can we justify balancing the health of the entire system by sacrificing a little freedom of speech? Should we merely emphasize and advertise our values, but try to stay out of regulating behavior?
Anyway, this is one of my favorite aspects of the game, as well. It has opened up a lot of questions for me, and it's been extremely challenging to have to think through the politics of it all. The questions I raised aren't rhetorical. I'm very interested in hearing what others think.
The one thing we do have going for us, as Patrick alluded to, is that this game is meant to be played in person. If a player wants to test the boundaries, then they will have to accommodate the responses they might receive. IRL problems...
JaredPWagner last edited by
Art is a tricky issue.
Magic is currently angering a significant subset of its player base by giving the impression that attractive females cannot be depicted on its cards. The Spoils went too far the other way and it was simply not suitable for children.
The correct balance is somewhere in the middle. I think early magic was close to the right place with cards like Serra Angel being eye catching but not tacky.
It is dangerous to outsource art without centralized oversight/approval. That is asking for all sorts of problems and headaches.
@jaredpwagner When sets are launched, the Cryptogogue team will have full control of the reference art, and hopefully it will be balanced in the way you describe. But, we really want custom art to flourish in the game.
Perhaps in the beginning we'll have to have some stricter controls about custom art (a controlled approval process of some kind), like @sprocket314 and @Grimjack mention, and then as the community matures, we can build a bit of resilience and automation into the custom art process so as not to have big headaches early on.
As for representation in general (and females, in particular), I would hope that artists show a little imagination, here. Apply similar standards for representation to all genders: some could be attractive, neutral, unattractive, monstrous, grotesque, comical, etc. My two cents, anyway.
Yorker last edited by
Just to share a sparks in my head, if we asking ourselves, what are the main difference of the card game? Eventually it is a game, and it is tied to the play of the game. If the block chain technology is to maintain and distribute the ability of the cards, where else the art is the flavour of it.
Both of us are drinking soda (the game play) but I prefer grapes and opponent is prefer apple.. eventually I am playing my grape flavoured card against your apple flavoured card, however under the same game rules it makes more fun.
Further more, with this ability of alt arts will promote more "value" of the collecting card. Which is the art creator to decide how many copies do exists in the system.
Anyway, this is just my sparks of idea. I will be delighted to see when I playing with my son, he could have his own art fighting against his father own collection.