• So I noticed in one of the articles that there would be the option to put your own art on some of the cards you would make/modify.

    Is there a restriction on art styles - as in, would it have to match what is currently the style of the game and use specific style references or will you let people submit their own original work (you know, providing it's not copyrighted or vulgar in nature)?

    What would the regulations for getting art submitted be like? How restrictive of the style would you be?

  • Following this one. I'm super interested in making my own art for my cards so knowing the restriction ahead of time would be great so I can get started on ideas.

  • administrators

    We want to hear what the community thinks would be most fun. I wouldn't want to see any restrictions on style. I asked our illustrator to go wild and free associate. I think it's up to you guys if you want to build on what he's done, or make something unique.

    As for reviewing content, there are a lot of ways we could handle that. We could start with a more open system where we leverage the community to flag inappropriate content and let people use filters (and create restricted wallets) to screen it out. Or start more restrictive, with publishing keys and an official review process.

    What do you guys think? How far should we go in restricting art and content?

    Also worth mentioning: anonymity isn't necessarily a goal - you'll be playing the game in person, after all.

  • I think a community flagging process is good so long as there are guidelines that are set in place. That way we don't get outliers flagging things that aren't inappropriate for invalid reasons. Also, to combine the two paths, having an official review process to see the flagged content would bring it all together. If people are uncomfortable with anything, they can quickly set the filters to filter out a large part of the cards they don't want to see. I think a tag system would be great for this.

    I think that limiting the creativity from the outset will defeat the purpose of this game in some part, mainly because from the start using custom art has been mentioned as something integral. Personally, it's part of what drew me to the game.

    I wouldn't suggest reviewing every single card that is customized simply because that is insane. So having the community flag cards considered inappropriate by guidelines you set will make the process easier. I also recommend issuing bans to repeat offenders whether they are purposely making inappropriate cards or spamming by flagging any card/ not following flagging guidelines.

    I know that sounds like a lot and I don't know how many resources you guys have, but I think that there can be a balance struck. Oh and also keep in mind plagiarism. I don't know how much can be added to the blockchain but people claiming work as their own that isn't, is also important to catch. Maybe a way to add that at least they have permission to use the art or somehow letting them link to the original if it's online? I think having an info box about the card that authors can write in would be a good start but I don't have a good idea right now.

    Whew, sorry for the long reply, but I want to see this succeed so I'm offering as much as I know. After seeing other sites going through so many debacles where simple solutions could have solved the issues, I don't want to see that happen here.

  • I wonder how many of the original The Spoils cards would get flagged as inappropriate by this system.

    It would be good to know the target audience for Volition. Would 10-year olds play it? Where would we set the limit, 15 and up? And I mean limit just for the art/content guidelines.

    On the other hand, I am quite an open-minded person and I would not mind a more adult oriented artwork. One of the key things about the openness of this system should be how free it is, so I would not want to see too many restrictions. I just wonder if there could be a way of segregating the adult content from the "child-friendly" one. Maybe it could be by sets? Some sets could be more "cute" or entirely targeted at a younger population and other sets could be for adults only? So when you mine them, you could have some age-restriction on the mining act?
    Like having three mining levels: below 15s miners, 15 to 18 miners, 18+ miners?

  • @grimjack I like the ideas you brought up. ^ ^ In regards to plagarism, perhaps it could be one of the guidelines by which a piece could get flagged?

  • @Bengali Thank you and yes plagiarism should definitely something someone can flag. I just don't know how the system works for providing info on your cards, which is necessary since someone who doesn't know that you have permission could flag you.

    @sprocket314 I don't know enough about The Spoils to comment on those cards. But you seem to exclude other possible cards that could crop up. Those which are racially insensitive, depict sexual acts, etc. I'm not against nudity in the cards, but there's a clear difference between nudity and sexual acts being shown. So the problem cards can run the gamut. Now you may say that pornographic content isn't really a problem since there could be a filter system. But it's all about public perception.

    Not to go off on a tangent, but as an example I'll use Snapchat. Snapchat started out with the stigma that it was only really useful for sending limited time nudes. It took Facebook seeing Snapchat as a serious threat for other people to really see Snapchat for the potential it had. Now I know this is this and that is that, but there's a very good chance this game can get stigmatized if sexual acts are allowed on cards. On the other hand, nudes in art is generally in the grey zone. Look to Roman art for example. But this game getting maligned so early can put an effective stop to what they're trying to do and I believe that goal is more important since it's what will keep the game going. Making custom art is only one part of this endeavor.

    Again, I do enjoy the freedom they are going to allow, I am an advocate for it. But there are still lines that must not be crossed because there are still rational and irrational people out there that could cause a more than just a stir.

    As for the actual sets themselves, I don't think any of the art will inherently need to be age restricted since I doubt there will be such cards in base sets. But that's me assuming. Again a system of flagging, reviewing and banning both offending artists and irresponsible flaggers should be enough. At least I believe so.

    By the way, I'm not trying to discount your opinion or anything of the sort. If I come off as gruff, it is not my intention. I always welcome the discussion anyway, especially if it's for helping out things like this.

  • @Grimjack I will absolutely respect any decision the Volition team makes with respect to guidelines. I also agree with you that as an initial step, it would be best to be a bit more restrictive to avoid being stigmatised and maybe once it is consolidated, it can open the door to more adult-themed sets with some sort of control system or new guidelines.

  • administrators

    There's a lot here, so I'll try not to be too unwieldy with my thoughts.

    @Grimjack: I think a pretty apt example for us is DeviantArt. They place a lot of trust in the community to adhere to their etiquette policy and self regulate. I'm in agreement with you and Patrick that I wouldn't want to limit or stifle creativity with regard to customization.

    Copyright and fair use will be an issue. We want artists to get credit for their work, and we also want creativity to flourish. @Bengali and Grimjack, we'll likely have to have a formal DMCA takedown process. Leaving copyright to the community might get the company in hot water (though, we won't be hosting any of the images--still, I bet Disney, for example, would try to sue us if some players turned Volition into a Star Wars CCG or something). If we do take the prudent approach, it'll be important to be as transparent as possible when removing art. I don't know how to do this one democratically, except to be honest as possible.

    @sprocket314, Volition may inherit some mechanics from The Spoils, as well as some of the humor and absurdity, but I think Patrick and Ken are designing this to be much less outrageous. The sets that we launch will be appropriate for younger players--13 and up, let's say. But, as with any democratized system, it's wide open to, well, being gamed. In my opinion, the three primary categories of concern are prohibited content (obscenity, abuse, etc.), restricted content (nudity, profanity, etc.), and discouraged content (stupid stuff that detracts from the game: e.g. spam or art that makes a card look similar to a different card). Grimjack pointed to the difficulty adjudicating between these categories. All communities are going to struggle with this one (as we've seen with Snapchat, Facebook, Reddit...). My argument would be to rely heavily on the community to flag content, and we give players the tools to filter accordingly.

    And, the other point sprocket and grimjack raised might be rephrased as: What kind of community do we want to encourage? This is difficult. We really want this to be a decentralized game. I sometimes use the term democratized. But, I don't know if I'd be comfortable if it was dominated by a particularly annoying group, especially at the beginning when we're trying to build critical mass. The economic model for the game might be laissez faire, but should that extend equally to the user-generated content? Can we justify balancing the health of the entire system by sacrificing a little freedom of speech? Should we merely emphasize and advertise our values, but try to stay out of regulating behavior?

    Anyway, this is one of my favorite aspects of the game, as well. It has opened up a lot of questions for me, and it's been extremely challenging to have to think through the politics of it all. The questions I raised aren't rhetorical. I'm very interested in hearing what others think.

    The one thing we do have going for us, as Patrick alluded to, is that this game is meant to be played in person. If a player wants to test the boundaries, then they will have to accommodate the responses they might receive. IRL problems...

  • Art is a tricky issue.

    Magic is currently angering a significant subset of its player base by giving the impression that attractive females cannot be depicted on its cards. The Spoils went too far the other way and it was simply not suitable for children.

    The correct balance is somewhere in the middle. I think early magic was close to the right place with cards like Serra Angel being eye catching but not tacky.

    It is dangerous to outsource art without centralized oversight/approval. That is asking for all sorts of problems and headaches.

  • administrators

    @jaredpwagner When sets are launched, the Cryptogogue team will have full control of the reference art, and hopefully it will be balanced in the way you describe. But, we really want custom art to flourish in the game.

    Perhaps in the beginning we'll have to have some stricter controls about custom art (a controlled approval process of some kind), like @sprocket314 and @Grimjack mention, and then as the community matures, we can build a bit of resilience and automation into the custom art process so as not to have big headaches early on.

    As for representation in general (and females, in particular), I would hope that artists show a little imagination, here. Apply similar standards for representation to all genders: some could be attractive, neutral, unattractive, monstrous, grotesque, comical, etc. My two cents, anyway.

  • Just to share a sparks in my head, if we asking ourselves, what are the main difference of the card game? Eventually it is a game, and it is tied to the play of the game. If the block chain technology is to maintain and distribute the ability of the cards, where else the art is the flavour of it.

    Both of us are drinking soda (the game play) but I prefer grapes and opponent is prefer apple.. eventually I am playing my grape flavoured card against your apple flavoured card, however under the same game rules it makes more fun.

    Further more, with this ability of alt arts will promote more "value" of the collecting card. Which is the art creator to decide how many copies do exists in the system.

    Anyway, this is just my sparks of idea. I will be delighted to see when I playing with my son, he could have his own art fighting against his father own collection.

  • the biggest draw to me about this game was the fact we could put in our own art. I play a lot of Magic the Gathering but some of the best cards in the game have some of the worst art and thats why alters are a thing and make bank "fixing" the cards. Also as another example of why i feel its so important as a personal example I tried to teach a friend KeyForge and it was a instant nope when i asked why he simply replied "the art" then went off to learn the Warhammer card game, In this case the option of changing the art to something more his style may of made him go ya ok lets look at how the game plays instead of a instant no.

    I also have a invested interest in the idea of using your art to bring value to the card. I think @Grimjack hit this pretty well my biggest concern with this is the content thats allowed. I have a friend thats a amazing alterer but ya know what cards bring in more money the ones with nude anime girls on them. I personally do photography work on the side wanna take a guess what pictures get the most online attention yep TnA. Now im all for it but I personally get pissed when im told my clothed Morgan Aensland alter is too sexual and to put it away by judges/store owners so I would hope that if the community oks something then no one has the right to cry about it. I will go all the way down the rabbit hole but I understand part of community growth is having a younger generation play too, @sprocket314 had a good idea with the 18+ flag. so really that line in the sand need to be put in.

    Also as @bengail touched on, things like adding value to a card threw custom art hopefully there is a way to have that plagiarism stuff policed by the community too to avoid one losing your time on your art and two Wizards of the Coast coming after cards with all the Magic art we steal to put on the cards 😛

  • @plaguescape I re-iterate my idea of having 3 mining tiers. One for "younger than teenagers" for your Pokemon/Yugi-Oh type of art, more cute. One for teenage to 18/adult, with cool style art, which probably would be the main bulk of it. One for 18+ for more controversial art (nudity, niche, etc.). Miners would then be able to choose which tier they want to mine or specialise into. That could also make it interesting or an incentive for miners to try different or less popular tiers, due to the rarity.

  • @sprocket314 I do like that idea but once it comes down to online or print and play, especially if there is a in real life tournament scene then the issue of we cant put that art on camera or get matched up online and you need censor bars cuz you got paired up vs a minor. At GPs for Magic they had minors day 2 and top 8 so I get the feeling if they want to take this to e-sport level what is how we would make more demand for cards especially if you could trace it to the fact this was the card that won at this one event ect type stuff that the block chain allows then we are more then likely going to get a family friendly art restriction.

  • playtesters

    Sorry to come up late on this, I'm very new to the forums... I find custom art to be one of the most interesting aspects of this game, but I am not sure whether I like it, at least from a strictly "does it make my game easier to conduct" point of view, because otherwise custom is always cool.
    My main issue comes from personal experience: The more I play a card game, the more familiar I become with the cards, I come to instantly recognize a card being played just by looking at the art. A fleeting look even for a moment on the table and I can instantly recognize the state of the game, if I'm behind or not, what effects are in play, what are the threats etc., just by looking at card art and not having to read at texts. I am sure that everyone that has played any card game for any amount of time can agree to this: you instantly "read" the table just by eyeball scanning the images.
    And therefore lies my concern: I am afraid that with custom art, having to double check every card that drops, might become tiresome in the long run. If EVERY card can be ANY card then NO card is recognizable when it hits the table, and that might be annoying long term. Sorry for my long post, looking forward to see how this goes!

  • administrators

    @baldur As a card gamer of 25+ years, I totally understand your concern. One thing to remember though is that even in card games like MTG, there are MANY iterations of art, of the same card. Promo versions, new set versions, full art versions, blacked out-foil Comic Con versions... even arted and customized cards... Those kinds of cards hit the tables all of the time.

    In Volition, I would not expect every card to have differing/unique art. There is a transaction fee associated to putting custom art on a card. Also, you can always revert cards back to their native state (unlike a real card that gets arted with bad art).

  • playtesters

    @cryptogogue_ken oh ok the fee makes sense, should also “filter out” some of it. Yea I think it’s just the old person in me that makes me skeptical but it’s nice you have thought it out

  • administrators

    @baldur We love hearing the feedback that's rooted in skepticism. It ensures we are looking at all the right things, from the right angles.

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